In a spin-off from our extremely popular Young Blood Sommeliers series, we are proud to present The Old Bastard Sommeliers, who will be running extremely sporadically alongside our (already sporadic) YBS interviews, well, that is if these Young Bloods can get their acts together to complete the interviews.
This always-entertaining series will focus upon in-depth extended interviews with some of the more infamous veteran characters in the scene, examining where they got their first start, who inspired them, how (through their skills, eccentricities, and perversions) they developed into the legendary figures they are today, and what tips and tricks they would pass on to the young bucks who are occasionally making them feel like relics of a bygone age.
This month we have a lengthy discussion with one of my very favourite Old Bastard Master Sommeliers, Mr. John Szabo.
Good Food Revolution: So, John, what is it that you are doing these days?
John Szabo: Lots of things! I’m traveling frequently again and tasting and writing for WineAlign, which just turned 16 years old in December. Incredible that we’ve thrived for so long in an otherwise decimated media landscape. So much has changed over the years. I don’t miss tasting at the LCBO head office as we used to pre-pandemic. We would get kicked out at 3pm so it was nearly impossible to taste all of the Vintages releases. Now we taste at WineAlign HQ and can take our time.
I write regularly for a few other publications like Canada’s 100 Best, Grapevine Magazine, Expditr, and others. I also host masterclasses and seminars from time to time for various industry associations, consult on the occasional wine program (working on the Donalda Club at the moment), co-host the Wine Thieves podcast with colleague Sara d’Amato, run introductory and certified courses for the Court of Master Sommeliers, and struggle to grow grapes and cider apples in Prince Edward County in my experimental, regenerative vineyard and orchard. Never a dull moment.
More recently, I signed on as the Curator-in-Chief for a recently launched company called The Barrel Hunter Club. It’s a membership-based community of ‘curious epicureans’ who share a passion for food, drink and travel. I curate the online web store of mostly alcoholic products, and host members tastings. I also find and hire guest curators to put together limited collections of products inspired by the worlds of fashion and art. The first launch is called the Gaudì Collection, after the Catalan artist and architect. Barcelona-based Kristina Petraviciute is our guest curator; she has assembled an excellent range of organic and biodynamic wines from Catalonia, as Gaudì himself was inspired by the natural world. For the next Collection I’m working with Saké Samurai Michael Tremblay, who’s assembling a brilliant range of sakés from small kuras never before seen (or tasted) in Canada. The Club has ambitious plans to roll out across Canada and eventually into the US. It’s an exciting project.
Lastly, I’m working on a top secret project. All I can tell you is that it’s not related to the wine industry.
GFR: Interesting…
Please describe a regular workday. What does a normal day entail for you? Is there a normal day?
JS: As you can tell from the above, there’s not really a normal day…. Keeps life interesting.
GFR: Tell us about your history in the industry. Where did you get your first start?
JS: In the kitchen at Chiado restaurant on College around 1996. I was a cook for several years (later at Splendido, Eigensinn Farm, Vineland Estates, plus a couple of Michelin-starred restaurants in France) before switching to the front of the house as a waiter/sommelier.
I eventually moved out of the house altogether and started writing and teaching about wine and consulting on may restaurants lists over the years, from large-scale (Pearson Airport T1, National Arts Centre, Trump Tower, Terroni Group) to little neighbourhood rests like Frida Mexican, and the Indian Rice Factory.
GFR: What’s the story behind your formal wine education? And with considerable hindsight, do you feel that this was the best route to where you are today?
JS: The first wine course I took was while working in Paris. By night I was working in a restaurant in Montmartre, so I decided to spend my days taking an in-depth course on French Wines out of curiosity and interest. It was 5 days a week for 6 months. Returning to Canada I took the Canadian Sommelier Guild Diploma, then the WSET Diploma, and enrolled after that in the MW program. But a friend in my tasting group suggested I take the examinations of an association called the Court of Master Sommeliers, about which I knew nothing. I was fortunate enough to pass both the Advanced and MS levels on my first run at it in 2004 – I saved a lot of money and stress! Was it worth it? Absolutely. The knowledge acquired was invaluable and has served me for my entire career. Passing the MS also gave me street cred, even in the eyes of those who weren’t familiar with the court, which was pretty much everyone back then. The title does sound convincing I have to say.
GFR: Have you ever been in a wine biz situation and begun to really feel your (relative) age? And if so, why?
JS: I travel a lot and meet hundreds of winemakers each year. I used to think about how much older and more experienced most of them seemed. I still see out of a 20-something’s eyes and everyone still looks older to me than I feel, except now I’m the old one at the table…
And I guess I also feel my relative age at all of the hip wine bars and restaurants in North America. I’m the guy asking the somm if they have any wine that isn’t natural and that actually tastes like wine.
GFR: I hear you on that one!
Let’s talk about “vinfluencers” why don’t we?
JS: Live and let drink. Just be serious about it, and plan ahead. It’s a short term career.
GFR: I’ve heard so many of my peers say that they don’t do the big shows anymore, the big wine tastings. What are your thoughts on that?
JS: I still go to many of the big shows, usually just to reconnect with producers as well as local trade. They’re not very useful for a wine writer – it’s impossible to write reviews in a crowded noisy room with constant interruptions and lineups three-deep at a table. I do taste, but for more of a snapshot. For wine buyers or sommeliers the shows are much more useful. And it’s a terrific way to learn and expand one’s knowledge and tasting experience at no cost. It would be foolish for those starting out not to take advantage of them.
GFR: Along the way, who inspired you the most? Did you have any mentors? And what did they do that set them apart from everyone else?
JS: David Lawrason and Tony Aspler, and even Michael Vaughan and Anthony Gismondi were certainly inspirations, the OGs of Canadian wine writing. I have learned a great deal from all of them and am happy to call them friends now as well. But my first ‘serious’ wine tasting was hosted by Margaret Swain – she was invited to lead a tasting for a group of doctors at Women’s College Hospital sometime around 1992. My mother was one of those doctors and she suggested I come along as I had showed an interest in (drinking) wine and thought I might get something out of it. I guess I did.
There was also a fellow named Terry Flynn who later sparked a more serious interest in wine. He was a server at Splendidowhen I worked there in the kitchen (1996), and he would always chat to me about wines. My first Burgundy tasting was with Terry and a group of Splendido servers at my house. I remember Terry was bubbling with excitement about a mixed case of 1er crus from the Côte de Nuits that the LCBO was offering (“it’s from the vineyard right next to Musigny!!!”), and he convinced us to chip in and do a tasting. That ruined me for life.
GFR: You never got into the agency side… Why was that?
JS: I did! Forgot to mention that when I returned from France in 1998, I started working shortly thereafter with Rob Jull at Vinifera. I brought in a whole range of excellent French ‘country’ wines – Languedoc-Roussillon, Loire Valley, Alsace, etc. – that I had discovered while there. They were a perfect complement to Rob’s phenomenal Burgundy, Rhône and Champagne portfolio. I am a terrible salesperson, however, so my career as a wine agent was doomed from the start. It’s better to be on the other side of the table.
GFR: Ah yes! I remember you dabbled in selling wine for a bit… you came to see me at the Granite club almost 30 years ago!
How do you feel that the industry has changed since you first started all those years ago?
JS: It’s more exciting, as far more people are into wine. And the opportunities to be part of the industry are far more vast (vinfluencers!! Who would have thought?!?). It’s also a much more complicated world – countries, regions, grapes, producers…. There’s more of everything. Glad I passed the MS in 2004.
GFR: And how has Toronto changed as a wine city?
JS: Well, it’s a wine city now. Back in the 1990s, good wine lists were few and far between – Opus, Barbarian’s ands a handful of others were ahead of their time. Now it seems every, even modestly aspirational, restaurant has a well curated list. Just wish wines weren’t so expensive.
GFR: What were the top spots for wine back in the day?
JS: Barberian’s was always top. Opus as well. Canoe had (has?) a great wine program. Splendido was great. Il Mulino on Eglinton. Chiado had the best Portuguese list in the city. Prego della Piazza. Jamie Kennedy’s wine bar (of course!). Scaramouche under the expert guidance of Toronto’s OG sommelier, Peter Boyd (also an inspiration to me). Niagara Street Cafe with Anton Potvin. George Restaurant. The Old Prune and Rundles in Stratford. Via Allegro was over the top then, as it is now. I’m surely missing many.
GFR: And where do you feel does a good job wine-wise these days? And what makes them stand out from the crowd?
JS: I think the Grape Witches (Krysta Oben and Nicole Campbell) have done a brilliant job in building their brand and the wine community along with it (they run a natural wine bottle shop and tasting space on Dundas West, and they also import wine). They’ve succeeded in creating a truly inclusive community of wine lovers, and really shaken up the Toronto scene and spawned many other natural wine shops and bars across the city. I laugh often with Krysta that I can’t drink any of their selections, but she can usually find me some old bastard wine that I’ll like…
Ben at Bossanova bottle shop on Roncesvalles has curated a great selection, well-rounded and full of discoveries, and just recently opened a wine bar next door. Josh at Archive (also Dundas West) has been running a terrific program for years. Also Giuseppe Anile at Midfield. You can tell what part of town I live in. But there are so many more no doubt. I just don’t get out that much as when I’m not travelling I’d rather be cooking at home (and drinking out of my own cellar, or talking a break from wine altogether).
GFR: Thankfully, we are on the other side of this pandemic. How did the pandemic impact your professional life? And how have you bounced back?
JS: There was panic in Rosehall where we had hidden ourselves away in the first couple of weeks, as all of the gigs I had lined up were cancelled one after the other. It was looking grim. But fortunately with closing doors come newly opened ones and in the end I had found new avenues of possibility. About three weeks in, I emailed every PR agent and country/regional wine association I knew and suggested moving to online tastings/seminars – the big ‘pivot’ – I guess as was among the first to move in that direction. In the end I delivered countless online events during the lockdown period. And I didn’t even have to leave the house!
Idle pandemic time also inspired the WineThieves Podcast – it was a brilliant way to stay connected with winemakers all over the world. Sara and I interviewed hundreds of people over a couple of years and made nearly 100 episodes – I love the medium. And we even earned money doing it. Just about all the episodes were sponsored by generic associations, never a single winery/company, so we were able to maintain some journalistic integrity and objectivity, such as it is in the oft-murky wine world. We turned down a couple of sponsor offers that we weren’t comfortable doing.
GFR: How do you feel the pandemic impacted the restaurant experience long-term?
JS: It drove prices through the roof. You used to be able to enjoy a good night out for two with a bottle of wine for around $200. That’s laughable now. More like $500 and up. As Joshua Green of Wine & Spirits Magazine recently wrote to me “It’s pretty wild how the cost structure of so many things has shifted in the past four years. A major inflection point.” He’s dead right. Tipping has gotten way out of hand. Employers should pay living wages, not expect customers to do so. Makes for precarious living. It’s annoying to be prompted for a tip when buying a loaf of bread.
It also made many realize that working in restaurants is tough and the hours are not conducive to healthy living; many re-evaluated their work-life balance, and life, logically, frequently won out. I think many realized that they weren’t, or needn’t be, defined by their work.
GFR: How aware of wine were you while growing up? Were you around wine from an early age?
JS: My father had a box of wine in the fridge most of the time. Nothing special… He’s give me a sip once in awhile. I remember Hillebrand on one of the boxes. Bottles were only for special occasions.
GFR: Can you remember your first taste of wine?
JS: New Year’s eve when I was five years old. The adults had left some unfinished glasses of champagne sitting on the table (it probably wasn’t champagne, but it was sparkling) so I decided to help myself. I remember the feeling more than the particulars of taste….
GFR: When do YOU feel children should be to the wonderful world of wine? How do you deal with wine/booze and your two kids?
JS: Neither of my children, aged now 20 and 16, are particularly interested in wine. I have casually offered sips and smells from an early age, neither really encouraging nor discouraging, as I didn’t want to make wine a forbidden substance. I did insist they give me “three fruits” before they were allowed to take a sip. But there are plenty of excellent health reasons to discouraged young people (under 21) from consuming alcohol. I’m not saddened by their disinterest. I’m sure later in life they will find some pleasure in wine, but if they don’t, I wouldn’t be upset. My cellar will be empty by the time I go.
GFR: So who or what gave you your very first insight into the world of wine? Did you have a wine epiphany?
JS: The first wine that stopped me in my tracks was a bottle of Tinta Valbuena from Vega Sicilia. I was studying in Spain at the time (language, literature, football and fun), drinking mostly $3 Rioja, which was pretty good. But I broke the bank one day when a friend came to visit and spent the equivalent of about $15 on that wine. We took it to a picnic but had forgotten the wine glasses, so we swigged it straight from the bottle. It was magical stuff, as soon as it hit my palate it was the first time I became aware of how delicious and transformative fermented grape juice could be.
GFR: I often feell that Toronto is its own worst enemy, and should play to its strengths instead of constantly trying to be NYC/London etc. Discuss…
JS: I don’t see Toronto as a poor copy of NYC or London or anywhere else. I think we have our own vibe and culture that has evolved over the last 30 years.
GFR: The Sommelier world is notoriously full of pretentious arseholes, and after seeing that film Somm a few years ago, I still worry about the emergence of a new Wine Bro culture… Also, I have picked up on a LOT of that vibe from some of the usual suspects in the mixology crowd—full-on Jordan Peterson fans and all that stuff. Believe it or not, I saw one of the usual suspects defend Andrew Tate recently. What the hell is going on there? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
JS: I guess I’ve been fortunate not to run into many pretentious ‘arseholes’ in the city. There are few old white dude wine writers who still think it’s 1986 perhaps, but not directly offensive to me. But I recognize that my experience is very different from many other’s experiences. I’m an old white guy, after all. But I think bias against, and treatment of, women, is still problematic, however. Those are the bros who have to go. The reckoning that took place a few years ago with that bombshell NY Times article about a few bad people in the Court of Master Sommeliers was an important catalyst for changing the culture. But there’s still a long way to go.
GFR: Speaking of which, we are having some really important conversations right now about the prevalence of sexual harassment in the workplace, and what can be done to eradicate it from the culture. I’d be interested to hear your take on the topic, and perhaps what you have witnessed yourself during your years in the wine world… big question, I know, but I feel it’s a topic that deserves discussion.
JS: The conversations have been going on for a few years now, and must continue to be had. And I’d add in racial biases, which also constitute harassment. These discussions should be part of every wine, sommelier, and hospitality program curriculum. Everyone in the CMS has gone through ‘sensitivity training’, for example (or they’re not allowed to teach any courses). And we all sign a code of conduct. But it’s clearly not enough. We need more of this sort of learning to eradicate the root of the problem.
There are at least laws in place, and workplace HR codes of conduct, to deal with sexual harassment. But there are more insidious, subtle actions that are also harmful. During the sensitivity training I leaned what micro aggressions are. They lurk everywhere. Many are not even aware that they’re being offensive.
Sadly, ‘cancel culture’ seems to have developed to deal with such issues. But that’s really the worst thing that could possibly have happened. It solves nothing. On the contrary, ‘cancelling’ kills the conversation before it starts, the very dialogue that could lead to more understanding and awareness. It’s sets up spurious, artificially rigid silos of right and wrong, of extremes. Situations are rarely so clear cut. Everyone makes mistakes., It’s what you learn from them that shows your character. It’s like political polarization. Look no further than the US, where one side won’t even talk to the other and everyone lives in echo chambers of self-reinforcing messaging. I’d cancel cancel culture and get back to civilized dialogue. That would be a good start to eradicate the harmful nonsense perpetrated by some.
GFR: So, natural wine is basically the new normal in many places… I’m pretty choosy when it comes to my personal forays into that world. What’s your take? You love a good ol’ Pet Nat, don’t you?*
JS: Really Jamie? I think we’re past that. The new old normal is good wine, which happens to be made by doing as little as necessary, and without harming the planet. To paraphrase Einstein. Wine should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. Wine is made. Anyone who leads with “my wine is natural” raises a huge red flag for me. If you have to rely on ’natural’ as a description, you’ve lost the plot, or you’re setting someone up to justify your shite wine. Pretty much all of the original ‘natural wine’ makers I know recoil in horror if you call their wines natural. The word has been coopted by charlatans and opportunists.
And Pet Nat? I think it’s both the most brilliant, and the most hilarious wine. I mean, good on those winemakers who can convince people to buy their half -inished products at double or triple the price of someone else’s finished product (and sometimes their own finished products). It’s hilarious. It’s a stupidity tax. And I do like a good foam explosion at my table, which I guess makes the half bottle that’s left to drink more like 4 or 6 times the price of a decent traditional method. But a cheerful bottle of cloudy bubbly at $20 or less? I’m all in.
Wait a sec…. I get it now…. You’re just winding me up. Cheeky bugger.
GFR: How would you say that your palate has evolved over the years?
For example, I went through an old vine Zinfandel phase. I revisited such wines last year… Hmmmm… interesting, but really not for me any more. Although, saying that, I’ve been quite enjoying some of them again recently!
JS: I have transcended to the realm of fruitless wines. The less fruit the better. Give me stones, wet rocks, chalk, salt, seas-soaked herbs. Even better if the colour is a shimmering pale straw. I now drink about 80% white wines (when I have the choice). I guess I haven’t changed that much.
GFR: How do you feel about Canadian wines?
JS: Comfortable on any table around the world next to just about any other wine. Caveat: right grapes, right place. I think we’ve found Montrachet, but we’ve yet to find our Musigny (rouge). The best bubbles (the finished kind) outperform every other region in the world at the same price. Where else can you get terrific blanc de blancs for $32 CAD?
GFR: What do you think we do well here in Canada?
JS: See above…. Chard, chard, chard. In that order. Pinot more rarely, but there are bright spots (Niagara Escapement, and PEC in Ontario, and Kelowna/north Okanagan). Riesling and cabernet franc are highly consistent cross country. Gamay is happy, especially in Ontario. Okanagan Syrah, also merlot and cabernet blends. Nova Scotia bubbles (and kékfrankos! Shout out to Lightfoot and Wolfville)… It’s all there on WineAlign.com – go to ‘Awards’ for the results of the National Wine Awards, the most comprehensive and professional competition out there. Full stop.
GFR: And what do you feel we should really give up on?
JS: Don’t give up, just try harder.
GFR: How do you feel about Canadian support for our local wine industry?
JS: Way better than it used to be. The trade is certainly on board, consumers still a little behind. But just wait for those boomers to die off and the balance will shift.
GFR: Just as there is everywhere in the world, there is quite a lot of dreadful wine coming from Canada (BC, Quebec, Ontario, et al.). How do you feel about the issue of people simply promoting something because it is local and not because of its quality?
JS: Honestly, ‘local’ is as good a sales pitch as ’natural for me. Why is a local retired doctor or hedgfund CEO more deserving of my dollars than an honest, hardworking Chilean or Croatian vigneron eking out a living from the land? Local is not even always more sustainable as some would make you believe. I get the circular economy angle, but the wine has to be good, and the makers doing the right thing (working sustainably as a baseline minimum. If all things are equal, then way not, I’ll happily buy local (and do, often). But I’m not buying it because it’s local.
GFR: You travel a lot, don’t you? What makes for a good food/wine trip? And what makes for an awful one? (and I know you have been on some dreadful trips in your time!)
JS: Annoying travel companions who think the world operates on their schedule alone.
GFR: Which wine regions have you had the opportunity to visit over the years?
JS: Would be easier to list the ones I haven’t…. Always wanted to go to Japan. Not just for wine, but also for wine, and saké, and whisky, sushi and noodles, green tea. I’m missing a few Balkan countries as well, though not in a rush to go.
GFR: Have you ever made your own wine? You’ve planted a vineyard up in PEC. How is that coming along?
JS: We’re not talking about PEC now, Jamie. It’s been a struggle. Growing grapes is genuinely backbreaking work, fraught with peril and unexpected expenses at every turn. It’s not a good business to start. But I’ve learned a lot. And at least no winemaker can tell me now that I have no idea…. And you’re forgetting I had a vineyard in Hungary – Eger – for 20 years. My partner did most of the work, but I can say I made wine, and pretty decent kékfrankos at that. I sold my vineyards to my partner’s son this year, however. I was happy to see him take over and go in his own direction. He’s making great wine. My very first wine was vintage 1999: a Chardonnay, Gamay, and Baco Noir made from juice that I bought from Donna Lailey (Niagara) and fermented and bottled in my basement. It was called “La Cardabelle”. Wasn’t half bad I have to say. The chard refermented a bit, but cleanly, so I had a few lightly frizzante bottles. Truly delicious.
GFR: And where would you like to make wine (in a pipe dream)?
JS: I would rather buy it ready-made, to go, as it were.
GFR: What have been your career highs and lows?
JS: Still working on those.
GFR: Who is, in your mind, a real role model for wine writers?
JS: Andrew Jefford. That boy can write like a poet.
GFR: And for wine/food PR?
JS: Paula Oreskovich (Wine of California/Napa) brings a huge smile to my face every time I see here. Boundless positive energy.
GFR: And for agents/importers?
JS: Too controversial to say. I have many friends.
GFR: Do you ever have nightmares about working with wine, maybe writing about it? I do it regularly, and it usually involves being unable to find bottles in a cellar. And the clock is ticking away. I have them all the time, and I haven’t been in the role for over 14 bloody years!!!
JS: My nightmares come while I’m awake, in the form of 66 Vintages releases all around $17 and all tasting curiously the same.
GFR: Wine folks famously have their Sundays off… What’s your idea of a perfect Sunday?
JS: Go for a run/walk, watch some Premier League footy with my son, go shopping, cook a family meal, drink a nice bottle of wine.
GFR: I know that you love to cook. What’s your favourite dish to cook these days?
JS: I mix it up, but I do love to make a slow-cooked braises. Chicken paprikás or coq au vin, osso buco, brisket, bolognese, that sort of stuff. Gives me time to sip wine while it’s simmering.
GFR: And have you had any cooking disasters recently?
JS: I burn stuff all the time, especially on the BBQ. I guess I should sip less wine.
GFR: Do you feel that there is a good Sommelier community in Toronto?
JS: Yes.
GFR: Do you hang out often with other wine folks? And if you do, do you only shoot the shit about wine? (I actually know the answer to this one…)
JS: Of course I do. And as you know, we only talk about wine. Wine people are very one-dimensional and boring.
GFR: Do you have many non-industry friends… How do they feel about what you do for a living?
JS: They think it’s very cool. Even my children’s friends think I have the coolest job. I think it’s true. Only one of my friends thinks that tasting wine is a nightmare. No one else will believe me.
GFR: What do you feel you would be doing if you were not doing what you are doing today?
JS: My top secret project. Stay tuned.
GFR: Hmmmm… I’m extremely curious as to what this is going to be…
Do you have a favourite food/wine-related scene in a film/movie or show?
JS: Hundreds. Recently, there was a great scene in the Netflix show Succession. Look it up.
GFR: Yeah… not really my kind of show, but some people seem to like it.
What are your thoughts on blind tasting wine?
JS: The great equalizer. For wine and people. It’s a useful exercise that really forces you to focus.
GFR: Are you a better blind taster with or without a bad hangover? I’m definitely the former…
JS: Ahh, I prefer to be fresh (and sober).
GFR: Some of the best tasters I know are heavy smokers… What are your thoughts there?
JS: Some great tasters are smokers, but not all smokers are great tasters… Your palate adjusts to your baseline. But to be clear, smoking DOES NOT make you a better taster. And one wonders how much better the smoking-tasters would be if they didn’t smoke.
GFR: In your mind, what is “hot” in the world of wine right now? And why?
JS: Dry Furmint, because I said so. That’s what writers do. They make up things they want to become trendy, call them trends, and then watch as they actually do become hot.
GFR: Aside from these fashions in wine drinking, what’s your current favourite wine style/region? And why?
JS: See above. High acid, stones, no fruit.
GFR: And what’s not so hot? What has fallen out of favour? Why do you feel that way?
JS: Sweet red wines masquerading as serious dry reds. Like Caymus and Meiomi. Preying on the weak. At least call it what it is, like they do in Georgia with their medium-dry saperavi. There are so pretty decent, well priced ones out there. Great with Moroccan tagine.
GFR: What is your favourite wine pairing right now—something nice and seasonal?
JS: Barolo and truffles. You buying?
GFR: What is your least favourite part of your job as a wine writer? As an on-floor sommelier it was the f****** inventory. Oh, and breaking down boxes… and the resultant papercuts (I have such soft hands!)
JS: Tasting endless bottles of same-same wine. Dulls the senses
GFR: What is your weapon of choice when it comes to a corkscrew? And why?
JS: Standard pulltap, double hinge type. Rarely fails. More recently, given my somewhat dry cellar, I use the ah so opener so the cork doesn’t shred into a million pieces. Hoping to get the Durand for Christmas.
GFR: Due to us being around alcohol, many people in our industry often have quite the increased tolerance for wine/booze, or they develop issues. What is your limit, and how do you keep yourself in check?
JS: I’m exposed to alcohol almost every day, which is not good. Biologically we know that the body adapts and ‘tolerance’ builds – that is, the amount of alcohol you need to get the same feeling increases relative to the amount you needed the time before.
At that first wine course I took back in Paris, the teacher said quite bluntly one day that anyone in the business of wine tasting was by definition an alcoholic. I thought that was mad at the time, but he was right. By any definition, near daily exposure makes you an alcoholic, even if you spit (most).
I balance this with exercise – quite a lot and regularly. I’m pretty fit for an old bastard. I do something – running, weights, fast walking, hiking, etc.- virtually every day. If this interview weren’t so bloody long, I’d be out for a run right now.
GFR: There’s a lot of open discourse right now around the topic of both drug and alcohol abuse within the restaurant/wine world. Would you care to share a few of your thoughts about that side of the business? To be quite frank with you, the thing I miss the LEAST about working in that environment is the late nights of drinking and recreational pharmaceuticals. I don’t think my body could take it any longer anyway!
JS: It’s a dangerous lifestyle. Many get caught up in it. Initiatives, like what Pascaline Lepeltier (Chambers restaurant in Manhattan) has implemented in her restaurant, namely no staff drinks on the premises, ever, not even the kitchen, is a great idea. This should be the norm. Back in my day (and yours), and still today, the kitchen had a round or two of beers at the end of the night as a matter of course.
GFR: Speaking of which, have you ever been “cut off”? If so, where and when was the most recent time? I think it happened to me back in Scotland once… hazy memories… at the City Café.
JS: Can’t remember…. Though many times I should have been, but wasn’t.
GFR: Which leads rather neatly into the next question… do you happen to have a good hangover cure? None of the cures given to me by previous interviewees have really done the job for me… well, apart from the suggestion about CBD gummies.
JS: Steam room, cold plunge, hydrate (with electrolytes), repeat at least three times.
GFR: How many wines do you “taste” in a week these days?
JS: 100-150.
GFR: When tasting with agents, do you choose to spit or swallow?
JS: I taste at the winealign office or at home, or wine winemakers, rarely with agents these dayds. And when reviewing, I always spit – the act of spitting out something pleasant causes your mind to jolt into action, refocus, apy attention. It’s critical. I find it hard to swallow and write/assess.
GFR: What’s your “house” wine at home right now?
JS: Why, I grab a bottle from the WineAlign Exchange subscription case. All of the wines are brilliant. I personally guarantee it.
GFR: Most remembered glass of wine ever?
JS: 1784 Château d’Yquem. Now I’m flexing. How could I forget that?
GFR: What is your perfect glass (or bottle) of wine at the end of a crazy day at work?
JS: Crazy comes in many forms in many seasons, so does perfect.
GFR: Coffee or tea?
JS: Coffee, mostly, though I love green tea too.
GFR: Lemon, horseradish, mignonette, or hot sauce?
JS: one single drop of lemon.
GFR: Vindaloo or Korma?
JS: Vindaloo
GFR: Milk or dark? And preferred cocoa content?
JS: Minimum 85% cacao, always dark
GFR: Ketchup, mayonnaise, or salt & vinegar?
JS: mayo (aioli preferably)
GFR: Blue, R, MR, M, MW, W, Charcoal?
JS: R
GFR: Volatile acidity, brettanomyces, or mousiness? (Hehe…)
JS: Love or hate? I’m ok with a little VA (under 1g/l, obviously). Brett is the great destroyer of place – shit smells like shit no matter where it comes from.
GFR: What advice would you give to these young bucks? What sage wisdom can an old hand like yourself pass on to the younger generation of wine writers and sommeliers?
1) The most valuable thing you have is your reputation and credibility. Protect it all costs.
2) Travel whenever you have the opportunity
3) Don’t be entitled
4) It’s not about you, silly.
5) Don’t regret the price you pay for today, a day of your life.
6) Live like you’ll die tomorrow, learn like you’ll live forever.
7) Drink more riesling.
GFR: If you could go back and have a word with the young John Szabo as he started in the business, what specifically would you tell him?
JS: Don’t drink so much.
GFR: Ha!
Thank you for taking the time, John. It is very much appreciated. This is an extremely long interview.
JS: I can’t believe I made it to the end. I really need a glass of wine.
Edinburgh-born/Ontario-based sommelier, consultant, writer, judge, educator, and Dad, Jamie Drummond is the Director/Editor of Good Food Revolution.
Peter Boyd has been a part of Toronto’s wine scene for over two decades. He has taught the Diploma level for the International Sommeliers Guild, and has been the sommelier at Scaramouche Restaurant since 1993. He also writes about wine, food and pop culture and raises show molerats for fun and profit. He’s also one of the most solid guys in the business.Trust this man. Seriously… he seriously knows his shit and just celebrated his 87th birthday!
A well-known and much respected figure on the Toronto food and wine scene for almost twenty years, Potvin has worked in many of the city’s very best establishments including Biffs, Canoe, and Eau. In 2004 Potvin opened his incarnation of the Niagara Street Café, a restaurant that has gone from strength to strength year after year, with universal critical acclaim. Anton spends much of his time traveling and tasting wine and has been ranked highly in consecutive years of the International Wine Challenge. After working as GM at DaiLo with Chef Nick Liu and Sommelier Pete Hammond, Anton is now selling wine with Banville Wine Merchants and explores the world of mycology and sailing in his spare time. Not usually at the same time.
